Transcript: How to Overcome Social Anxiety | Therapist Explains

Welcome back to Connectedness, the podcast where we explore what it really means to feel seen, understood, and connected to ourselves and to each other.

I'm really glad you're here today because we are diving into something that so many people experience but don't always talk about, which is open but don't always talk about openly, which is social anxiety. And I couldn't think of a better person to. Have this conversation with then my friend Danielle, who's not only someone I trust deeply, but also a psychotherapist who works closely with people navigating these exact challenges.

Danielle, I'm happy to have you back on the podcast.

-Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Yeah, it's second time.

We are going to unpack what social anxiety actually is, where it comes from, and most importantly, how people can begin to move through in a way that feels empowering and not overwhelming.

Danielle? To start off, would you want to define social anxiety in a way that people can really recognize in themselves?

-Yeah, sure. So social anxiety is really the fear of being criticized or negatively evaluated by others, or perhaps not being accepted.

So usually in social situations?

-Yes.

OK. So I think even I don't think it. Thankfully I don't suffer from social anxiety, but I have been in situations where I felt self-conscious or I felt like a little out of place.

What is it we are talking when we say social anxiety? Are we talking about like just being shy in public? Or is it more like like a debilitating thing or, or is it like on a spectrum?

-It's definitely on a spectrum. So you bring up a good point about shyness because shyness is more about temperament and personality. Not necessarily about being socially anxious in the same way that you can be introverted and also not be socially anxious. So there's definitely some, you know, ways that you can define social anxiety separate from those.

-I think that for those individuals who are dealing with anxiety around on social situations, it can range like... It can be a a small amount of anxiety to a very debilitating amount of anxiety. There are also individuals that are really debilitated by social anxiety disorder that feel extreme forms of stress. Kind of disproportionate to the situation.

-So for example, somebody who is or to help you relate imagine that you have to go give presentation that is like the career defining presentation in front of high level executives.

-So that kind of fear is the one somebody who has, let's say, a social anxiety disorder. So a very high amount of anxiety might feel that in just an everyday social situation like checking out at the grocery store. Or going to an event with friends that they were or are comfortable with. But so they can experience these extreme forms of anxiety in kind of everyday social situations.

-So that would be at the high end and that would be more disordered. Social anxiety disorder, but you can also have social anxiety and not meet the threshold for a disorder. So a lot of people with social anxiety, just kind of, they have that inner critic or that inner voice that's kind of like, you know, saying: "oh, you're going to be make a fool of yourself or you're going to be judged. People aren't going to like you." Kind of that running dialogue, but not necessarily to the point where it's debilitating or prevents them from doing those things.

OK, so I guess I, if I heard you correctly, the one of the things to watch out for is whether it's impacting or it's debilitating. That is the word you used.

-Right.

For what if it's gotten to a point where it's making you not do things or not want to get out of the house or not go to places that maybe could have been a good opportunity for you that might be getting to that debilitating point?

-Exactly so, and a good point to mention about that is that usually there is a desire for connection. A person wants to go out and connect with others. They just find it difficult to do so as opposed to somebody who's let's say more introverted and really just enjoys being at home and, you know, profiting or doing whatever.

-And that necessarily doesn't have as much of that desire for the socialization. So it's having the desire for it, but also having something that that holds you back from being able to do it or prevent it. Kind of reduces the amount of times that you want to engage.

Yeah, right and how common is it? Do you see it more than people than somebody might expect?

-Yeah, it's a lot of people. I think I want to say it's about either maybe 10% of the population that has that, deals with social anxiety. And I think a lot of people have symptoms or have these kinds of feelings but don't necessarily have a word for them or don't maybe. Don't realize until later on in life.

Ohh that's what was going on.

-I was having social anxiety. So it is pretty common.

Umm 10% is more than I thought.

-Actually it's quite, it's a pretty good portion of the population. I think I want to say it's either 10% or one in five. Something of that nature that it's. Yeah.

Wow. OK. You find from it like, you know, you share whatever you think is appropriate here, but do you find that it is more shaped by past experiences or by personality or it's just is it the environment?

-I think it's a combination, like a lot of other things in terms of when we're talking about mental health, is that nature and nurture. So I think a lot of it stems from your early experiences with your caregiver kind of going back to attachment theories, like whether you're securely attached or anxiously attached. Kind of if you've had that more secure base than going out and having these social situations and having that sense of security and consistency can lend you to your chances of having social anxiety later in life are less.

-But I think some of it is also just your environment. Like let's say you were bullied when you were younger in school and you've had some. Formative experiences growing up that led you to want to avoid social situations, so both of those could you come into play.

What about that is like, let's say somebody identified like just listen to what you just said and they identify in themselves that maybe their social anxiety is driven by like. Childhood trauma, emotional trauma or something like that. It can be treated with therapy or?

-Yes, Absolutely. Ohh yeah, absolutely. You can definitely have. We're delving into some of that to kind of look at where it started. It's always helpful. And then the most helpful thing is having reparative experiences, so being able to have other situations where you can kind of move through things to help build confidence and efficacy, whereas maybe even though that moment was defining for you, it doesn't.

-I mean, it's going to define the rest of your life. It can certainly be something that you work on in a in a safe environment with the therapist kind of going back to the memory going over it. And then kind of a lot of inner child work might come into play as well, kind of talking to that younger version of yourself, realizing, you know, what skills and abilities you have now that you didn't have then. So yes, it certainly is something that can be, can be overcome.

That's good news. And so if somebody is going through a moment of social anxiety, what's going on internally in that moment? Or do you, Danielle, I'm asking like you've been there and you've done it all. But like, do you know, well, what thoughts are running through their heads and kind of, you know, in the moment.

-Sure. So there's actually two things and all self disclosed. I do have social anxiety, right? I would say I'm recovering from social anxiety, right. It's something that it's still there. It operates in the background, but now I have coping skills so I can talk from a personal experience. I can also talk from a professional experience in terms of the training and the work that I've done with others.

-So what's going on for people with social anxiety is usually two things. There's physical symptoms, right? It might be heart racing, excessive sweating. The temperature is going off heart heart palpitations. It could be a range of physical cues, a glut of gut issues. Some people have a lot of you know, saying like your stomach is in knots kind of feeling that could be another symptom.

-And then thoughts as well as "These people aren't going to like me", "What I have to say is stupid", "They're going to judge me". Just kind of more talk forms of negative self talk and kind of like future tripping. So saying that there's going to be some sort of negative outcome or "I'm going to be either criticized in some way" or "I'm going to end up looking dumb or looking like you don't know what I'm doing", "I don't know what I'm saying".

-So there's really that like, fear of negative evaluation. Umm. It's sold. All those thoughts are going by the way, like just listening to you talk that way and say those things kind of feels bad. Like it feels like.

Ohh, who you know it. It just my heart goes out to people who are having those thoughts in the moment because at least.

-Yeah, I know we're talking hypothetically about a situation, but I I think this kind of thing happens all the time. And from my perspective, those thoughts are all incorrect or false, you know? And it sucks to think that people are believing that about themselves. Well, and oftentimes people know that rationally that those thoughts aren't true, right?

-They can have a sense that, yes, I'm having these thoughts, but I I don't necessarily believe them, right? But it doesn't change that the way they feel, right? So even though you have my individuals might have a rationalized idea that no, these things I'm probably thinking . "Probably when I walk into the room everyone's going to run out of the room screaming and pointing at me and saying well look what he's wearing or look what she's done". Yeah, there's this awareness that that's probably not going to happen but it doesn't change the internal feelings around it. Yeah.

OK, All right, so to keep social anxiety going or even make it worse over time? Do you, does it make it? Does it get worse over time?

-Yes. It can so. The tricky thing about social anxiety is that with social anxiety, you tend to avoid social situations because of that fear of there being some sort of negative outcome. So and in avoiding it, it's creating a greater sense of fear. So really like one of the key things, and this might come up later in our conversation about treating social anxiety is cognitive behavioral therapy and one of the most efficient ways is through exposure therapy

-So it's kind of like walking through situations so that you can see no, they're not going to run out of the room screaming and pointing at me, right. OK, maybe I mispronounce a name or I. Forget a fact or I don't say things, I don't come out exactly the way they want it to. But guess what? I survived, right? I made it through the situation. So it's it's having those experiences that help to to move through the social anxiety, but without having any coping skills or without, you know, having that awareness that you do need to be able to walk through these situations, whether you knock it out of the park or it doesn't go as smoothly as you had hoped for, but the more that you avoid it, the greater it gets. It builds its strength in the avoidance.

OK. So the more yet. So it's almost like if you don't yourself the filling prophecy and negative and negative feedback cycle, yes,

-Yeah, OK, so and you're right, we were going to try to talk about practical tools and coping strategies, right? Always, always focusing on the solution.

Yes, so so I was going to ask like what are some small realistic steps someone can take if they struggle with social anxiety? Umm and how can someone begin to challenge those anxious thoughts in the moment?

-So because like as I mentioned earlier that there are more physical symptoms and sensations associated with social anxiety as well as more cognitive, there's things that you can do in both of those areas. So in terms of more somatic things, you can do things like breathing exercises. Mindfulness practices little things such as like small movements, like for example, taking your thumb and your index finger and rubbing them together gently to help ground you, grounding techniques to help bring you back into the present moment.

-OK, so there are small like more somatic ways to work with that. And then there's also the, of course, the cognitive part, right, the thoughts surrounding the situation. So I think one of the greatest things that helped me personally that I heard is that most people are not really thinking about me or concerned about me. Most people are much more worried about. What's going on in their own lives, whether they had a, you know, a fight with their partner earlier in the day or what they're going to make for dinner or what their plans are for the weekend.

-Most people are pretty more self involved, right? So as much as we're thinking about their self ourselves and thinking that they're thinking about us. Most likely they're not, they're probably just focusing on their own lives. So that's just a, you know, one of the things that I heard that kind of helped shift things a little bit. But it's also about just kind of challenging some of those thoughts, like kind of asking yourself, what is it that I'm afraid of, right? What do I think will happen? And maybe like thinking out of like. From a scale from like zero to 10 or, you know, zero to 100%, how likely do I think that is?

I mean, yeah. And so if somebody's going through all these thoughts. In the moment and their feeling socially anxious maybe from what just hearing what you're saying? Like maybe they can find a way to maybe take some deep breaths and challenge their thoughts if they have an opportunity to journal even better ahead of time. I know you probably can't journal in the moment. Maybe I had of time.

-Yeah, there are certainly some things that you can do. There's more on the spot techniques and then there's more cumulative things that you can put into practice and journaling is certainly one of them, yes.

So you we talked about techniques and somatic and cognitive and you're building confidence over time. Ohh I have another one if you don't mind. The great thing is also trying to focus more on others, like not being so ego driven, like not being so centered on self. So focusing on others. Maybe trying to think of how can I, you know, make this this a more pleasant experience for all. Maybe I can, you know, give somebody a compliment just. For something that's that's that can provoke a lot of anxiety thinking about giving a compliment, but that could also be an exercise in terms of help, helping to move through some of it. But another thing in in before even getting to the point of being able to give a compliment, it might just be about being curious, just being interested in others and kind of keeping the focus. Externally rather than internally kind of help to bring some of that anxiety and pressure down.

Yeah, yeah. And and so, so being curious, maybe asking questions, follow, listening and following up on what they heard, anything they can do to keep the focus away from what. People thinking about me, kind of thoughts, right? Things like that. Or it could be also environmental things like kind of scanning the room, like when you enter in, like moving from left to right and kind of taking in everything. So that would be another way to kind of get outside of oneself, OK. And if somebody, let's say, for example, if you have somebody who is coming into therapy to get over their social anxiety or to, to, you know, I don't know if the right word is get over, but to, to, to get to a point where they're not the social anxiety isn't as debilitating as it used to be. How? Like how quickly can they get better? Or is it something that takes a long time?

-So it really just depends on the individual and how extreme, again, if they're just if they're having social anxiety or if they meet the threshold for social anxiety disorder. So it really depends upon the severity and it depends upon the individual. As you know, everyone is unique and has had different experiences. But some people can start practicing these skills, you know, after just after a few sessions. I always recommend, you know, it's it's kind of a goes with exposure therapies, trying things out in very like comfortable situations, very low stakes and then building up confidence to be able to do things that are a little bit more difficult. You know, with the help and guidance of somebody like a therapist or it could also be with a trusted friend. Some people have, you know, it kind of goes back to the attachment idea and having a secure base. But some individuals bring other individuals with them, a friend or a loved one or a trusted person to kind of act as their secure base so to help them walk through these things.

OK, that does sound nice. Um, what about like people who are self labeling and for example, somebody who might say, you know what, I have social anxiety and that's just who I am. Have you seen? People truly like, overcome or significantly improve their social anxiety even though they think that's part of who they are.

-Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can attest to that myself because social anxiety is still something that I have and something that operates. It's just that in my life, it's just it's not in the driver's seat anymore. I am, but it's always there. I can always address it and kind of see it off into the distance or see it before me, but there's space between myself and the anxiety. Right. So it's not in control anymore. I, I'm aware and present that it's there, but at the same time I'm, I doing, I'm making the choice to do the things I love and I love and enjoy connecting with others, right?

-But I did try other negative coping skills before I developed healthier coping skills, and I think that that's the key, is being able to have some tools in your toolkit for dealing with these things and you can certainly recover. Does it completely go away? That hasn't been my experience. But for others, that might very well be the case, right?

OK. That's good to know that, I think, from a standpoint of a therapist. Um. Would you say that the people who suffer the most from social anxiety, they have awareness that they have it and they are coming to seek treatment or do you, is it more of one of those where they just suffer from it and they don't become aware of it and don't seek treatment. What have you seen?

-It can be, it can be both. OK. There can be people that will come to therapy and say I know I have this. I've looked up the symptoms in the DSM where I've, you know, done a Google search or ask chachi PT and I have social anxiety, right? So they come in, they self diagnose. And they're saying they know exactly and they have a very high awareness of what they have right, of what their of what they're experiencing. They just don't have the the tools, right. They don't have the coping skills available to them. So and then there are others that don't that have other come in for other presenting concerns, right, They might be going through. Relationship issues or isolation, addiction, problems with addiction and it might be so. There might be other things that are masking this, but underneath there might be some anxiety or social anxiety as well.

-So a lot of people might kind of describe maybe through, you know, when they're younger child or in their teen years, perhaps their 20s, like maybe feeling like they don't necessarily fit in or belong, just feeling different, not really sure, not being sure why and that. Very well-being because of social anxiety right right right so like I I. And I guess this is based on somebody I know like that told me that they can't, they don't feel comfortable talking to the opposite gender and in especially in a dating context, but they are OK talking to the same gender but not the opposite gender, umm and somebody else recommended a group and I actually haven't had a chance to look into this group, but it's called like awkward and awesome or something. And I guess it's a New York based group where people who consider themselves socially awkward. Then go and get, you know, get support and get better at it and, and things like that.

Would you say like when you've dealt with people who have social anxiety or who consider themselves socially awkward?

-Is it selective like can it be selective with different types of people that they're talking to or is it like everybody's like, wow, no, I can definitely be selective, especially dating, right? I mean that just can be bring up anxiety for for people that don't even have social anxiety, right, That's just. It can be a pretty anxiety provoking situation, um, mostly because of the that fear of rejection, right? Which again is, is also at the heart of social anxiety. But even individuals that don't have social anxiety can have that fear of rejection because you're putting yourself out there, you're vulnerable. So yeah, it can be limited to just. A specific group of people. You can feel more comfortable talking with people of the same sex and then feel uncomfortable talking to people who you're interested in dating romantically.

Yeah, OK. Alright, so Danielle, thank you so much for coming on the show to talk about and and your therapy, therapeutic perspective as well as personal history. Is there anything you would like to share with the viewers? Like where can they find you?

-Sure. Well, well, thank you for having me, first of all, and I'm happy to share my experience and talk about how you can get help for social anxiety if that's something you're going through. So yes, you can find me on Psychology Today, Danielle Fraus. You could also find me at my website, which is Danielle.www.com and I'm on Headway, Facebook and Instagram. So you can find me in a number of ways.

-And if you're if you feel like you're relating to this and this is something that you might think you have or that you need some help with navigating, then ioffer 10, you know, it's about a 10 minute phone consultation so that you can tell me a little bit. About what's going on with you, we can chat, see if therapy would be a good option for you, if we would be a good fit. So yeah, please feel to feel free to contact me whether it's about social anxiety or anything else. So I deal with a host of different issues that the individuals are going through. Reaches depression, anxiety, addiction, codependency. And I work primarily with young adults, so individuals that are in their 20s and 30s kind navigating life changes, you know, changes of career, maybe moving relationships, having difficulty connecting with others. So yeah, please feel free to find me and I'd, I'd be more than happy to connect with you.

Awesome. And just you, are you licensed to practice in North Carolina and other states like South Carolina or how is your license?

-So I'm actually licensed in North Carolina as well as in Florida. So I can see clients virtually, um, in North Carolina and Florida.

Pretty big, big area. So yeah, awesome. Well, this was such a meaningful conversation. Danielle, thank you for sharing your insight and also your compassion around that topic that so many people struggle with. If you're listening and if you see yourself in part of this conversation, I hope you're walking away with this. You are not alone, and this is something that can shift over time with support and with the right tools.

If this episode resonated with you, feel free to share it with someone else who might need it. And as always, please like and subscribe, and thank you for being part of this. Until next time, stay connected.